“When I stop thrashing around and grabbing for what is owed to me, I begin to see the detail and depth in the faces of those around me.”
@April I don’t believe we’ve met (because I think you’re in TX) but thank you for your words here.
What typically nudges me is perspective. What is my transgressor battling through (or the like). I think that perspective comes from the Holy Spirit and we only really notice it when we stop thrashing about or focusing squarely on how we were wronged. Keller talks on pg. 42 about forgiveness and reconciliation entailing sympathy for another’s point of view. We don’t always get clear perspective though. A prayer I’ve found myself praying more and more recently is that God would help me see my transgressors as He sees them.
Phil, I love what you’re grabbing here. I always call it “telling a good story” for someone else. Mine usually start with one of two sentence structures:
“I don’t think she woke up this morning hoping to be caught up in ___________.”
“I don’t think that guy was a little boy and dreamed of ____________ being his life.”
I actually think they help me in that I can always go back further to find grace. We’ve walked through some awful (monstrous) things with people. And no matter how awful (even life in prison awful) we can always go back to the reality that some force/event/trauma showed up at some point and jacked life up. Because that’s what sin and brokenness do. They break beauty. Grace rebuilds beauty. (Insert stained glass metaphor)
In considering what nudges me from self-regarding to others-regarding, I've come to the conclusion that this is not something that happens because of my great character, but because of something that transcends earthly expectations. This is my Sunday school answer, but it's also super true. At my core, I know best how to meet my own needs, wants, desires. This idea is endorsed in the modern narrative, especially for women- "Get it, girl." When I stop thrashing around and grabbing for what is owed to me, I begin to see the detail and depth in the faces of those around me. True seeing awakens the love that lives inside of me, and it beats to the rhythm of a different world. I believe in a deep magic. I know this is about explaining the practicalities of forgiveness, but this is beyond understanding. I've had an amazing experience in which I have been forgiven, and it's turned me into a romantic. The nudge is that I'm loved in a ridiculous way, and it's transforming me.
The journey from “deep magic” to “romantic” is fascinating.
Like…the stereotypical cliche romantic believes that love happens and is inescapable, etc etc…all because of some experience or expectation (hidden in their heart?) that shapes the way they see the world.
The mystical Jesus romantic believes that grace and hope and mercy and love fall upon us and is inescapable, etc etc … all because of some experience or expectation (hidden in their heart?) that shapes the way they see the world.
Maybe? Right?
So the deep magic you have experienced (what a subversive and salacious phrase - very much something that one might utter on the other side of the wardrobe door) has ushered you into a place where you are now see the world anew and the grace that falls for what it really is and from whom it really come?
I will admit I've been slow to forgive someone because I was going through a rough time and felt like they didn't care about my emotional pain. Therefor I was rude to them but didn't feel the need to forgive at first because they hurt me by cracking jokes.
Lesson learned: I in the long run didn't feel any better with my situation by being rude to my friends.
I do think the "me-centered"-ness of ourselves can cause us to be slow to release others from the debt they owe. It is hard to let it go because there is great fear (in our minds) that we will never get it back.
I do think there might be more hidden in this chapter. If our culture has no moral absolutes than how can I identify what exactly has been taken from me? Imagine that feeling of when you are in a class and the professor has no assigned seats so no one owns any particular seat. But you sit in the same seat day in and day out. While it is not yours it has become yours. Then one day you come to class and someone is in "your seat". We are offended and yet in what way?
If our culture can't identify moral absolutes (or the morals we do have don't have a backing) I think it can be challenging to pin point WHY we are hurt/offended. We might say, "well my feelings are hurt, therefore this person has done me wrong." But what wrong have they done? Your feelings are not a moral ground. Or we might say, "What they did was wrong, but I'm not sure why or how to identify it." This is like saying "you took my seat." Well, yes they did... but did they really? So we are confused of even what to forgive someone for.
The real exchange (I am wondering) is that we have exchanged forgiveness for empathy. I feel hurt, now I expect you to understand my feelings of hurt and acknowledge them, and to some degree feel the same hurt that I have (this ends up being transactional forgiveness). Or we demand someone apologize for my feelings (which ends up being nonconditional forgiveness). Forgiveness is the release of a real/objective debt while empathy is rather a release of a subjected loss where we want the perpetrator to acknowledge and feel so they know what it is like.
What has nudge me toward more other-regarding is what Phil brought up: perspective. Perspective in that I don’t know what the other person is going through.. but realizing that people are just trying to make it through the day.
We have lost the social graciousness that we once had.. if I can just offer grace to one person who is stressed to the max.. not get upset because I have to wait an extra 90 seconds for something.. maybe, just maybe, people will see a glimpse of Christ..
The other thing I have noticed, is that as I have gotten older, time seems to go faster. (I’ve talked to my friends about this.. we all agree) or maybe we are ALL doing things a tad slower which makes us THINK time is going faster.. whatever.. but time...is of the essence...I AM forgiven. I need to.. have to forgive those who have offended me. Now.
And, I don’t know if this urgency to forgive is due to my age ( that time thing) or because I have a family member in harms way right now.. probably both.
I don’t want to live the rest of days, my moments, with an unforgiving spirit...with a bitterness, with suppressed anger towards someone. I think a lot of that has to do with my unmet expectations which were either not expressed properly or unrealistic in the first place.. as I look at my to-list today.. 😂...and my pride..that I’m right and the other person is wrong and basking in that.. well yippee for me.. but that does nothing for my relationship with the other person at all.. and as I said, getting older I have found, I want the relationship more than wanting to be right.. or my ego being stroked.. or anything else. The ONLY way I can do this is keeping my focus on Christ..
I feel as though anyone can use the excuse not to forgive on the me first culture we are surrounded by. However, as one of my favorite and wisest women in my life said, "excuses are like a**holes, everyone's got one." 🤣 (She really is one of the wisest women I know)
How long do you lean on that? How do you push past the excuse? My Sunday school answer is way more simple - Jesus.
Kyle, interesting to think about the severity of the offense and lack of injustice. I guess my answer is - all of the above. It all plays a role in my head and heart. Until I bring it back to - Jesus. Who am I to deserve anything more than death? But! I can say this... This doesn't happen in a day. I have been working to forgive someone for years. The offense was deep, the impact more than I could comprehend, and it effected my life in ways I buried for decades.
If your culture is like a swimming pool…is it possible that if the excuse is one swimming pool (so immersed you don’t even know you’re in it) and therefore sort of an impossible-to-discern problem? Like maybe I wouldn’t know I am making excuses for my lack of forgiveness because of the waters I swim in?
Which would mean that you have to forcibly choose new waters? Jesus pool? And there you cannot find excuses because his honest reflection of reality is all consuming? You are submerged?
“When I stop thrashing around and grabbing for what is owed to me, I begin to see the detail and depth in the faces of those around me.”
@April I don’t believe we’ve met (because I think you’re in TX) but thank you for your words here.
What typically nudges me is perspective. What is my transgressor battling through (or the like). I think that perspective comes from the Holy Spirit and we only really notice it when we stop thrashing about or focusing squarely on how we were wronged. Keller talks on pg. 42 about forgiveness and reconciliation entailing sympathy for another’s point of view. We don’t always get clear perspective though. A prayer I’ve found myself praying more and more recently is that God would help me see my transgressors as He sees them.
Everybody Loves R̶a̶y̶m̶o̶n̶d̶ April.
Phil, I love what you’re grabbing here. I always call it “telling a good story” for someone else. Mine usually start with one of two sentence structures:
“I don’t think she woke up this morning hoping to be caught up in ___________.”
“I don’t think that guy was a little boy and dreamed of ____________ being his life.”
I actually think they help me in that I can always go back further to find grace. We’ve walked through some awful (monstrous) things with people. And no matter how awful (even life in prison awful) we can always go back to the reality that some force/event/trauma showed up at some point and jacked life up. Because that’s what sin and brokenness do. They break beauty. Grace rebuilds beauty. (Insert stained glass metaphor)
Perspective taking is such an important part of extending grace and forgiveness. Sometimes it just helps me to navigate traffic!
What is traffic?
Ha! I wondered if that would be lost on the BG crowd.
In considering what nudges me from self-regarding to others-regarding, I've come to the conclusion that this is not something that happens because of my great character, but because of something that transcends earthly expectations. This is my Sunday school answer, but it's also super true. At my core, I know best how to meet my own needs, wants, desires. This idea is endorsed in the modern narrative, especially for women- "Get it, girl." When I stop thrashing around and grabbing for what is owed to me, I begin to see the detail and depth in the faces of those around me. True seeing awakens the love that lives inside of me, and it beats to the rhythm of a different world. I believe in a deep magic. I know this is about explaining the practicalities of forgiveness, but this is beyond understanding. I've had an amazing experience in which I have been forgiven, and it's turned me into a romantic. The nudge is that I'm loved in a ridiculous way, and it's transforming me.
The journey from “deep magic” to “romantic” is fascinating.
Like…the stereotypical cliche romantic believes that love happens and is inescapable, etc etc…all because of some experience or expectation (hidden in their heart?) that shapes the way they see the world.
The mystical Jesus romantic believes that grace and hope and mercy and love fall upon us and is inescapable, etc etc … all because of some experience or expectation (hidden in their heart?) that shapes the way they see the world.
Maybe? Right?
So the deep magic you have experienced (what a subversive and salacious phrase - very much something that one might utter on the other side of the wardrobe door) has ushered you into a place where you are now see the world anew and the grace that falls for what it really is and from whom it really come?
Maybe?
Maybe? :)
April I want to steal your answer 😊 you are great at articulating your heart. Thank you for your thoughtful response!
She’s the best
Not sure I really have answers this week.
I will admit I've been slow to forgive someone because I was going through a rough time and felt like they didn't care about my emotional pain. Therefor I was rude to them but didn't feel the need to forgive at first because they hurt me by cracking jokes.
Lesson learned: I in the long run didn't feel any better with my situation by being rude to my friends.
I apologised, and felt the relief.
Kate - this is a great non-answer. Like…you found a way to answer a question that wasn’t asked. 👏
I love the journey from unforgiving to needing forgiveness. ❤️
Why are we slow to forgive?
I do think the "me-centered"-ness of ourselves can cause us to be slow to release others from the debt they owe. It is hard to let it go because there is great fear (in our minds) that we will never get it back.
I do think there might be more hidden in this chapter. If our culture has no moral absolutes than how can I identify what exactly has been taken from me? Imagine that feeling of when you are in a class and the professor has no assigned seats so no one owns any particular seat. But you sit in the same seat day in and day out. While it is not yours it has become yours. Then one day you come to class and someone is in "your seat". We are offended and yet in what way?
If our culture can't identify moral absolutes (or the morals we do have don't have a backing) I think it can be challenging to pin point WHY we are hurt/offended. We might say, "well my feelings are hurt, therefore this person has done me wrong." But what wrong have they done? Your feelings are not a moral ground. Or we might say, "What they did was wrong, but I'm not sure why or how to identify it." This is like saying "you took my seat." Well, yes they did... but did they really? So we are confused of even what to forgive someone for.
The real exchange (I am wondering) is that we have exchanged forgiveness for empathy. I feel hurt, now I expect you to understand my feelings of hurt and acknowledge them, and to some degree feel the same hurt that I have (this ends up being transactional forgiveness). Or we demand someone apologize for my feelings (which ends up being nonconditional forgiveness). Forgiveness is the release of a real/objective debt while empathy is rather a release of a subjected loss where we want the perpetrator to acknowledge and feel so they know what it is like.
This is pretty interesting…
Almost like we’ve put “reconciling my feelings” above “reconciling in relationship”…
Gotta roll that one around for a bit…definitely something there.
What has nudge me toward more other-regarding is what Phil brought up: perspective. Perspective in that I don’t know what the other person is going through.. but realizing that people are just trying to make it through the day.
We have lost the social graciousness that we once had.. if I can just offer grace to one person who is stressed to the max.. not get upset because I have to wait an extra 90 seconds for something.. maybe, just maybe, people will see a glimpse of Christ..
The other thing I have noticed, is that as I have gotten older, time seems to go faster. (I’ve talked to my friends about this.. we all agree) or maybe we are ALL doing things a tad slower which makes us THINK time is going faster.. whatever.. but time...is of the essence...I AM forgiven. I need to.. have to forgive those who have offended me. Now.
And, I don’t know if this urgency to forgive is due to my age ( that time thing) or because I have a family member in harms way right now.. probably both.
You’ve got my head spinning, Susan!
The speeding up of time at the far end…and the urgency is might produce? Wow.
I don’t want to live the rest of days, my moments, with an unforgiving spirit...with a bitterness, with suppressed anger towards someone. I think a lot of that has to do with my unmet expectations which were either not expressed properly or unrealistic in the first place.. as I look at my to-list today.. 😂...and my pride..that I’m right and the other person is wrong and basking in that.. well yippee for me.. but that does nothing for my relationship with the other person at all.. and as I said, getting older I have found, I want the relationship more than wanting to be right.. or my ego being stroked.. or anything else. The ONLY way I can do this is keeping my focus on Christ..
“For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
This motivates me to forgive.
Me, too, Sandy. It’s really empathy in action. Not a way to leverage Jesus but a way to see ourselves as leveraged in sin.
I feel as though anyone can use the excuse not to forgive on the me first culture we are surrounded by. However, as one of my favorite and wisest women in my life said, "excuses are like a**holes, everyone's got one." 🤣 (She really is one of the wisest women I know)
How long do you lean on that? How do you push past the excuse? My Sunday school answer is way more simple - Jesus.
Kyle, interesting to think about the severity of the offense and lack of injustice. I guess my answer is - all of the above. It all plays a role in my head and heart. Until I bring it back to - Jesus. Who am I to deserve anything more than death? But! I can say this... This doesn't happen in a day. I have been working to forgive someone for years. The offense was deep, the impact more than I could comprehend, and it effected my life in ways I buried for decades.
I want to keep reading!
Interesting stuff.
If your culture is like a swimming pool…is it possible that if the excuse is one swimming pool (so immersed you don’t even know you’re in it) and therefore sort of an impossible-to-discern problem? Like maybe I wouldn’t know I am making excuses for my lack of forgiveness because of the waters I swim in?
Which would mean that you have to forcibly choose new waters? Jesus pool? And there you cannot find excuses because his honest reflection of reality is all consuming? You are submerged?
Maybe?